Ok, let's see if this starts anything. The theory of the great T-Rex being a scavenger, not preditor. Would love to hear opinions and reasonings for them.
Personally...I beleive it was both. As with todays preditors, the also scavenge. Who would pass over an easy meal, right? Whatch'all think???
Personally...I beleive it was both. As with todays preditors, the also scavenge. Who would pass over an easy meal, right? Whatch'all think???
-
Re: Scavenger or Preditor
Wed, March 17, 2004 - 1:08 PMI say scavenger. The biomechanical evidence that I have seen suggests that they weren't built to run but to walk. They also had a huge olfactory lobe, much like vultures today. My hyp. is that they wandered about seeking carrion. They used their size to intimidate smaller more nimble predators off their kills. The problem I have with this senario is that it's presupposing a mammal-like behavior.
It's also possible that they hunted much like Komodo's do today. Ambush attack the prey. Bite them, which infects with a bacterial infection. Then wait for the blood poisoning to take hold and weaken the prey for them. Again, same sort of problem, komodo's prey are mammals. -
-
Re: Scavenger or Preditor
Wed, March 17, 2004 - 2:03 PM> "The biomechanical evidence that I have seen suggests that they weren't built to run but to walk."
Even a "walking" t-rex is moving fairly quickly though...compared to many animals anyway.... -
-
Re: Scavenger or Preditor
Wed, March 17, 2004 - 8:33 PMI saw the doc on PBS about the scavenger theory, and I was convinced of it's validity.
First of all, we must not assume that she was a predator unless proven a scavenger. starting from a neutral position the evidence quickly weighs in on the scavenger side (the above mentioned olfactory cavity, tibia/fibula ratio which is structured more for walking long distances than running bursts, unstable center of gravity for pursuit, etc.). The hunter side of the argument seems only to have sentiment. -
-
Re: Scavenger or Preditor
Wed, March 17, 2004 - 8:54 PMThe lizards like to eat snacks ! I heard a theory once that assumed the T-Rex was perhaps warm blooded. Those big sharp teeth make me think predator. I'm inclined to say its both scavenger and predator. Most big reptiles today fit that bill. -
-
Re: Scavenger or Preditor
Thu, March 18, 2004 - 6:20 AMThe warm blodded theory is the way I lean as well. Birds are dinosaurs closest living relatives, and birds are warm blooded. Also, as we know, fish are cold blooded, but the great white is warm blooded.
Being the devils advocate, all known preditors also scavenge if the opportunity presents itself, so T-Rex being a preditor still makes sense. It may not have been the most efficient HUNTER, scavenging more often then not, but I believe it was still capable of ambush hunting if nothing else.
-
-
-
-
Re: Scavenger or Preditor
Fri, March 18, 2005 - 11:46 AMActually there were many slow moving reptiles that could have been easy prey for a school of Rex's. They could have set up & sprung traps to cull the sick, injured, & the young. This way even with the bacterialogical bite they could be assured of easy prey. Couldn't you just picture it? A school of Rex's single out 1 or 2 dino's. the young run in & deliver the bite & the school uses the size of the older Rex's to run off the rest of the herd, & now they have enough food for that day. I really can't see them eating huge meals on a daily basis, maybe more like snakes - where they would use a few days to digest - then go hunting again. After all if there were too many preditors the food supply would dissappear. There would have to be a balance some where & maybe the balance came from the small egg eating mammals. -
-
Re: Scavenger or Preditor
Sun, March 20, 2005 - 2:50 PMI tend to think that T. Rex was more scavenger than predator, for the reasons I've seen posted already. I also remember reading about the infectious bite of a T. Rex, and how that mode of attack is similar to the scavenging ways of the Komodos today (bite, sit back and wait for infection to set in, and then munch).
I'm also in the warm-blooded camp for a variety of reasons - lack of growth rings in most dino bones, evidence of spending a long time in a nest, feathers in some, etc.
I saw a little blurb in New Scientist this last week -- here's the link - www.newscientist.com/channel...915.700. It's about how trace amounts of protein was recovered from some dino eggs, and that the protein is similar to that of chickens.
Just one more little piece of evidence that dinosaurs may have been warm-blooded. -
-
Re: Scavenger or Preditor
Wed, July 19, 2006 - 9:16 AMMy guess is "both." A large carnivore like a tyrannosaur has a number of possible strategies by which it may obtain food. If it encounters sufficiently slow-moving and vulnerable live prey it can actively catch and kill its food; if it discovers a carcass it can drive other carnivores away and "hijack" the meat. Tyrannosaurs probably did _not_ routinely charge herds of large ceratopsians or try to eat full-grown ankylosaurids for the good reason that this would have carried too much risk of mortal injury to themselves; on the other hand a sufficiently hungry tyrannosaur probably would have taken such a risk. They also could probably not have outraced the small to medium-sized runners, but they may have intentionally startled them into flight in hopes that a sick or injured one could be captured (the act of stampeding them must at times have _caused_ some of the runners to fall down and hurt themselves).
A large carnivore also has a large appetite and cannot afford to be too choosy, which makes me think that as tyrannosaurs grew in size, they evolved broader and broader definitions of acceptable food. I suspect that they wouldn't even have passed up soft, easily digestible _fruit_, if such food appeared in sufficient quantities to be worth gulping them down. They didn't have the dentition to be true omnivores, but even cats will sometimes eat fruits if available.
Sincerely Yours,
Jordan -
-
Re: Scavenger or Preditor
Thu, July 20, 2006 - 6:48 AMI'd say both. Top predators tend to use their size or number to take the kill from other smaller preditors as well as general carrion; but I'd be surprised if T-Rex didn't hunt and kill its prey, either straight away or wounding it sufficiently (through blood loss/ bacterial infection/blood poisoning) and tracking the prey 'til it was weak enough to finish off. In terms of hunting technique, I read the suggestion that its hunting technique was probably similar to Great Whites in that they would ambush their prey (if we're certain T-Rexs lacked speed), and bite large chunks out of their prey (the forearms redundant) before finishing them off.
-
-
-
-
Re: Scavenger or Preditor
Mon, July 24, 2006 - 1:57 AMI went to this great lecture by Jack Horner. He totally convenced me Trex is a scavenger. he made a great point about how if Trex ran and triped it could't push itself back up becouse of it's little useless arms. -
-
Re: Scavenger or Preditor
Mon, July 24, 2006 - 7:18 AMI would guess that when tyrannosaurs lay down (for whatever reason) they got back up using their powerful neck and jaw muscles rather than their relatively weak arm muscles. The real danger of a tripping tyrannosaur, though, would be breaking bones. A tyrannosaur with a severely broken leg would be doomed, because it was obligate-bipedal and probably solitary. So a tyrannosaur would be careful to avoid tripping in general. Nature is very unforgiving when it comes to any serious injury on the part of an animal, especially one without a social group.
The issue for a tyrannosaur is energy consumption. Few prey capable of running at any speed would be worth the trouble of running after, because the tyrannosaur would use up a lot of energy running. We can be pretty sure a tyrannosaur wouldn't chase man-sized prey very far, for instance. At the same time, most of the things in its world that _couldn't_ run fast but were big enough to be worth chasing were _dangerous_ -- only a hungry tyrannosaur would have cared to mess with an adult anklyosaurid (which note, offered to a T-rex mostly the threat of breaking its jaw or a leg).
A tyrannosaur may have done a lot of scavenging not because it was afraid or unable to hunt, but simply because it was _easier_. A carcass isn't going to run, after all, and the main requirement for hijacking a carcass is to be the biggest and scariest carnivore on the scene. A tyrannosaur fit _that_ bill in spades, to the point that its main problem in this endeavor was probably other tyrannosaurs. It does not follow from this that if there were no carcasses lying about and the tyrannosaur was hungry it was above making one of its own. And a tyrannosaur of course was well equipped for hunting -- it _could_ run if it wanted to, and its tremendous jaws and massive talons made it extremely dangerous.
- Jordan -
-
Re: Scavenger or Preditor
Thu, July 27, 2006 - 5:04 PMI read a book on tyrannosaurs by John Horner -- it also convinced me that tyrannosaurs were primarily scavengers. I also liked the analogy of tyrannosaurs to komodo dragons.
But I see the point -- a tyrannosaur had to eat, and it wasn't a small animal. Ankylosaurs and ceratopsians would be dangerous adversaries and were probably not high on the food list except in more extreme situations. That said, I'm pretty sure I've seen at least one fossil triceratops with a bite mark in its frill.
There were other less dangerous creatures out there to eat though. Hadrosaurs leap to mind.... -
-
Re: Scavenger or Preditor
Thu, July 27, 2006 - 10:39 PMIt's occurred to me too that the big predatory dinosaurs probably considered hadrosaurs their standard prey. Big enough to be worth the trouble, and with fairly puny natural weapons for their size. They probably ran from big flesh-eaters, but I'm not sure that they would have been much faster runners. Maybe they took refuge in the water (though the waters of the Cretacaeous had dangers all their own).
Modern mammalian carnivores also tend to look for a small, old, sickly, or injudred herd beast to attack. Most herd-dwelling herbivores (elephants and musk oxen are significant exceptions) will stampede away from an attacking carnivore, leaving the weakest in their herd to perish. Cruel, but it comes directly from the logic of their selfish genes -- they are more related to themselves than to anyone else in the herd, and each would put itself in very severe danger by fighting.
Dinosaurian herbivores probably behaved the same way. So even if a big biped like a tyrannosaur was a relatively slow runner, it might be that the specific herbivore he was chasing might be an even _slower_ one. The ceratopsians had a choice to run or fight; the decision probably depended on the size of the attacker, the size of the herd, and the type of ceratopsians (some of the ceratopsians were no great shakes as fighters). Looking at the anklyosaurs it's really difficult to envision them "running" at anything but a fast waddle; all that armor and nasty tail-knobbery and spikery was clearly meant to let the beast stand its ground. Sauropods might have done a number of things depending on relative size; the reaction of a really big sauropod to a small carnivorous dinosaur was probably to tail-whip or trample, rather than flee. I don't know how fast big sauropods ran (or, technically, "walked"); they would have been clumsy with all their inertia, but sometimes a big animal can be surprisingly fast based on stride length (example: elephants, who can walk fast enough to keep up with a running horse and easily run down a running man).
But yes, I really really doubt that a big hungry carnivorous dinosaur would have passed up an opportunity to scavenge, whether by being first on the scene or by hijacking it from some other animals.
- Jordan
-
-
-
-
